Sub guys are in a conflicting situation. They want to submit to a woman, but they must first arouse her interest in them. How can they pull this off?
When you first communicate with a woman in a dating situation, she is doing more than listening to your words. She is reading your non-verbal body language, your attitude, your attraction to her and much more. A submissive guy has to be a guy first and then engage in submission when she initiates dominant play. He has to show her his desire for her. Some men display their arousal by aggressive behaviors, dominating others who they perceive as competing for the object of their desire, etc. These behaviors may be counter-productive, i.e., they may turn off the person they are pursuing. I do not condone agressive behavior that can lead to abuses such as “date rape”.
Making one’s way to establish a relationship is difficult for vanilla ones and an even more perilous minefield for D/s. At the bars I work at guys often approach me with questions such as: “do I call her mistress, ma’am or her name”, “can I make the first move and ask her for a date?”, etc. Unless I know what the woman they are interested in prefers, I advise them to act as though they asking a ‘vanilla’ woman for a date. They should show a non-hesitant advancement towards her through the natural expression of their masculine personality, a display of leadership and independence. This is not “sexist bs” anymore than a discussion about male erections would be. Not all men are overtly masculine. Guys have to go with what they are comfortable with and what works for them.
There are guys who really want to hook up with a dominant woman. The more desire they have to do this, the more likely they will “trip over their tongue”. They have to approach her with confidence. They have to be up front with what they want, even if it can lead to an embarrassing situation. Establishing a relationship begins by triggering the BDSM dynamic from creating tension that can be resolved by “interpersonal transactions *”. A guy can create this tension one way by being the initiator of the meeting and taking the lead of the interaction while maintaining a position of high value. A guy who wants to take the role as a submissive to a dominant woman has to has to both initiate the transactions (an act that some would consider dominance) and indicate that he would be submissive with her if things worked out. It is not easy to pull this off in a convincing way. In the male leather scene of the past, guys would wear colored bandannas on one of their pants pockets to indicate their preferences. We don’t have universal markers that people accept. Guys are sometimes misled by women who dress in SM Goth styles but who are not into BDSM.
On the non-verbal side, guys can stimulate women through playful teasing, humor, friendly touches and penetrative seductive gazes towards her eyes and body and finally more intense intimate touches.
I added a comment at the bottom from a reddit contributor who suggests guys take the “coy” route through teasing and playful interaction. This may work for some guys who do not want to present themselves as overtly masculine.
- “interpersonal transactions” is a term that indicates the type of interactions people make with each other. Some interactions are almost entirely “mercantile” as it is with traders. Some are more along the lines of empathetic emotional support. There are transactions common to BDSM practitioners. This post would become too lengthy to describe them.
In Chase Amante
Women on Pedestals
Men watch models and actresses and porn starlets all day long, and become obsessed with finding women who look just like them. And when they find the women who look that way, they lose their cool, get weak in the knees, and turn to silly putty…
men doing this have raised beautiful women up to the same lofty ideal and level of respect and deference they once gave to goddesses. Beautiful women are to be sheltered, protected, treated with kid gloves, and doted upon. One must never mention sexual intimacy, lest her fragile sensibilities are shaken. And one must certainly be slow, deferential, and unfailingly a gentleman while courting her.
Although sub guys are conditioned by media to treat dominant women deferentially, you will not establish a healthy connection with anyone you place on a pedestal.
Approach your dominant as though you are not any sub but someone of value and that you are worth her time. Do not place her on a pedestal by these behaviors:
1. Not wanting to say anything to offend her in any way
2. Over-complimenting her
3. Being needy or clingy
Present yourself as the kind of man a woman can’t easily manipulate. Raise the bar on her dominance by challenging her. Guys, don’t present yourself as submissive to any woman just because she knows how to wield a whip, you want to be her special partner that she will respect for your commitment to her if she meets your standards too.
Pedestal treatment can ruin things if you are not yet in a relationship with a dominant because you will over think things during interactions and often waste her time with shallow cliches. Dominants have no desire to stand on the pedestal submissive men have set up for them, and will usually run when presented with it. They see an unsolicited invitation to be his special queen or princess and they reject a sub guy who will worship the ground they walk on just because they happen to be dominant. They want guys who can turn them on and show them a good time.
The advantage of not seeing a woman on a pedestal are:
- You seem far more possessed, self-confident, and worldly to a woman when you’re clear-eyed around her
- You’re able to act according to your experience and do the right things to move an interaction with her forward, rather than getting nervous and supplicating and losing any shot at being with her, which is what most men do
- You get to see a woman for the person she is, rather than as some ideal creature of beauty that she doesn’t really like being seen as
- You get women’s respect, because rather than communicating you’re beneath them, as men who place them on pedestals do, you communicate that the two of you are equals
Why society, including those in leather & kink doesn’t ‘get’ prodommes… discrimination against Pro Dommes stemmed from the conflicting attitudes regarding sexually empowered women in our culture http://bit.ly/2rBLfrx
‘You’re not like other Dommes’ is something I have heard many times, a sentiment which usually has been prompted by my having completely normal, polite conversation with a prospective submissive. This is not a surprise, given the pervasive and ‘classic’ image of a Domme is that of the strict, crop-wielding, leather-clad dominatrix. She is beautiful, perfectly composed, organised, and with her demands and steely will in perfect clarity. By the very nature of the pedestal she stands on, she’s cooly distant, tantalisingly out of the reach of the submissive, only to be worshipped and revered.
Unfortunately, or perhaps very fortunately, she exists at best only momentarily. This, however, isn’t a widely acknowledged fact, even by subs who have been in ‘the scene’ for quite some time. There has been some debate as to why this is – blame has been placed on pro-Dommes and their marketing. As ‘wardens of fantasy’ (2)…
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My point was more about the fundemental dichtomy bewteen the pedestal quite a lot of subs put Dommes on, and the fact they criticise us for being ‘cold’ or ‘distant’. I don’t agree with the frequently negative attitude toward pro-Dommes which seems to be around in the kink community, but that’s for another post, I think.
I think you’re right that the ‘pedestal effect’ that regards women as remote, distant ‘goddesses’ that guys cannot approach has made establishing a connection between men & women much harder. I advise guys who fear talking with a dominant to treat them as other people they would meet. If they are submissive, it will come out in their personality eventually. Education can go a long way. Thanks for your observation.
Which, as a Domme, I can whole heartedly support as very sound advice. 😊
Interesting post, dave! Thank you for sharing 🙂
‘He has to get her aroused by masculine dominance, non-hesitant advancement towards her through a free expression of masculinity and display of independence.’
I cannot even begin to express how much I disagree with this. Try to express ‘masculine dominance’ to any Domme will invariably rub them the wrong way. There is nothing wrong with a submissive approaching a Domme as a submissive, but that doesn’t necessarily mean approaching them with hollow platitudes about ‘service’ and ‘worship’.
I’m not considering the relatively recent re-definition of “(toxic) masculinity” [which I agree is problematic].
I refer to “traditional masculinity,” that has been handed down to males. It has nothing to do with the dominance of others; those who are most beautiful to our minds and praised for their masculine virtues are those who serve; and the more their service becomes a loving slavery, the more our hearts are touched by their works.
In a relationship, dominance with respect to a woman’s cardinal evolutionary need to find a male who will never abandon her and can therefore be trusted to protect and provide for whatever children the two of them may bear…she’s in control of the relationship. http://bit.ly/2UOs4Ih
In that case, how would you distinguish between ‘toxic’ and ‘traditional’ masculinity? And, if I may ask, if it has nothing to do with the dominance of others, why did you use the phrase ‘masculine dominance’?
Also, as far as I can see the article you’ve linked to just outlines about why men, evolutionarily hardwired towards dominance, might enjoy submission sexually, and to where the actual power lies in such a power exchange. By all means, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t quite see how this illustrates how ‘masculine virtues’ feature in male submission.
Sorry for all these questions, I don’t mean to sound hostile, I’m just genuinely curious to explore the topic and your argument. Also, I wrote a short post summarising my thoughts on the subject: https://silkenclaws.wordpress.com/2018/12/16/due-deference-masculinity-and-approaching-a-domme/
Please do let me know if I’ve misunderstood or misrepresented your thoughts on the subject.
Thanks for your comment Rosa. I briefly answered your linked post in the comments section. Your critique deserves a lengthier and thoughtful response which I intend to do soon when the pressures of work ease off.